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January 13, 2012

Comments

Thanks Tim. This was really well written and thought-out.

I wish I'd taken one of your classes when I was at FPU. Thanks for putting this together in such an easy to understand way.

Right on! Very well said!

Thanks Tim! Excellent reflctions!

However, I am troubled by one trend in the responses to "I hate religion." People are quick to pick up on the latent anti-Catholicism of the video, but I have yet to read a response that deals with the anti-Judiasm of the video.

I love a strong minded Christian

Well said and I can relate. Ihave all but been beaten with a belt on my Facebook pages and group pages by folks. You can find me as Jacqueline Johnson from Irving TX.

Thanks for the comments, all. Sorry I've been too busy to get back to each one of you personally. It seems many feel that there is clearly a sentiment of truth in the video, but have a nagging feeling that something is also a bit askew.

On a related note, this post was published on the Mennonite Weekly Review's blog and it has gone viral over there. They had over 3000 hits in the first 24 hours and many people have left a wild array of comments. Here's the link if interested: http://www.mennoweekly.org/blog/2012/1/16/i-hate-religion-love-jesus-approach/

Great post Tim, I appreciate your thoughts. Very insightful and I think you strike a hopeful chord, something we are certainly in need of!

I feel a personal relationship with GOD is what Jesus taught. He makes more references to this then he ever did promoting organized religion. Organized religion is man made "in the name of God or Jesus" who have built the church. The church is within us and not some denomination we join.
JESUS, in not just a name used like a tool for christianity. He is the ultimate teacher for mankind. His purpose here on earth was not to leave his name behind but to guide us and show us the love God has for us. He showed us that God's gift of free will still stands and that free will means his people will hurt from time to time.
If he was to intervene when evil happens, this would eliminate free will and therefore go against his word, which he doesn't do,
This was the reason for Jesus. Jesus " God's Only son" showed us faith under the most serious persecution and prevailed.
So as for organized religion, it would be better served if people went into it with the knowledge of the bible for themselves. Not dictated by a pastor, reverend pr priest.
Some people may have more knowledge of God, but to say people are holier and closer to God is blasphemy. I don't care if it's a religious leaders or the pope himself. We all have equal access to God period.
God bless and keep reading your bible and live accordingly.

I think there are some valid points in this argument, but I think there is one point that is missing. You argue "1.It is not possible to have a belief system without religion. An organized religion is a framework for understanding a particular faith, and includes beliefs, values and practices. A religion creates a whole culture in which one lives and worships" but religion is not the structure which provides the framework, doctrine is and the two are not synonyms. You are right that religion creates a culture, but I would argue that is why people identify with this video. It is the culture of religion that facilitates and dare I say, even encourages, the abuses against which people rail. Alternatively, doctrine should govern the choices that people make in life, doctrine should govern how people treat others and Jesus set the example of rejecting religion by overturning the tables of the money changers as it was the perversion of the church, the religion and the doctrine that was abhorrent. A Christian should not forsake the assembling of themselves together, nor Christian traditions, but it is doctrine and not religion that allows for people of the same faith and like mindedness to congregate in the same house of worship.

Why oh why must we go back to the Dark Ages to find meaning for today? Are we all to become mystics or monastics? I think the early fathers tried this and it did not last. Please let us live in the here and now! No lectio divina, silence, fasting, prayer labryinths, historic creeds. Let's follow Jesus and live by his example, feeding he hungry, helping the poor, working for justice.

@Amelia

No silence and fasting? I think Jesus did both of these during his ministry.

Tim... After reading this post, I have to say thank you for putting it in these words without using the termed "balanced." That seems to be a catch phrase of other posts answering this video and other anti-IC writers.

Having you as a professor during undergrad at FPU, I never found your perspectives balanced, but you always encouraged us to think critically. You are one of the people in my life responsible for keeping me from following my natural tendencies toward hyper-fundamentalism. Imagine me becoming a KJV onlyist? Instead, I am pursuing the very course of study that my personality finds difficult... missions and intercultural studies. If things continue to work out, I should be taking Hebrew this fall.

One point that I would add to this is that I have never seen an instance where religious culture facilitated or encouraged the abuses which people rail against. Remove the things about religious culture that we think facilitate and encourage abuses and the abuses will always remain. The abuses are committed by people... whether you and I consider them good people or not. The reason people want to blame the institution is they want to think of people as generally good people who were corrupted by the institution.

As for me, as much as I now blame the abusers and not their church or ministries, I have to be honest and take full responsibility for my own actions and attitudes that have hurt people. No institution caused me to act this way, the devil never made me act corruptly and I was never corrupted by any organized religion.

My sin, in action or attitude, came from within.

One thing....Jeff does go to a conservative church, here in Washinton State.

t this is not the way forward. Isolation, dislocation, fear and hate of anything will not help anyone become a better follower of Christ.

Early church did fine without a statement of beliefs. The more organized, the more corrupt they become. The bigger the org the more corrupt.

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